Reframing Fairness Without Invalidating Emotion

What if the word “fair” is quietly keeping clients stuck? We dive into the emotional gravity of fairness and show how precise language, neutral validation, and clean reflection can move people from moral courtroom to practical resolution. Guest Evelyn Marley—DCA-certified ADR divorce coach and host of the Fight Less podcast—joins us to unpack how communication tools like silence, mirroring, and micro-reframes lower defensiveness and open pathways to agreement without erasing emotion.

In this episode, we explore the distinction between validating feelings and approving positions, and we tackle the confirmation bias that often sways even well-meaning professionals. You’ll hear how to translate fairness into interests and needs, keep the focus future-facing, and align choices with a client’s best-self vision. We talk through reality-testing, the power of asking “Is it true?”, and why strategic pauses can surface insights that scripted speeches can’t. Most importantly, we define “good enough” as a value-aligned, livable threshold—not a surrender—so clients can choose progress without betraying their core.

Along the way, we spotlight common language traps that entrench conflict and offer practical prompts you can use today: clarifying what “fair” means to the client, reflecting small shifts that build momentum, and inviting clients to say the unsaid in a safe space. Conflict communication is a learnable skill, and when you change the words, you change the trajectory. 

Ready to trade fairness debates for better outcomes? Subscribe, share this podcast episode with a colleague, and leave a review.

About Evelyn:

Evelyn Marley is DCA® certified divorce and communication coach who helps people handle hard conversations by reframing conflict. Evelyn draws from mediation training, divorce coaching, and communication studies and her work centers on awareness, boundaries, repair, and language that lowers defensiveness and escalation.

She is also the host of the Fight(Less) Podcast, where she interviews experts who help people transform and use conflict management as a skill for repair, growth and deeper connection even during life's difficult challenges. 

How to reach Evelyn:
Email: reframingconflict@gmail.com
Website: https://www.evelynmarleycoaching.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evelynmarley/
Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/5UZZMzwtPVGc1WeinCcDY9?si=883fa51bbafe4a6c

Learn more about DCA® or  any of the classes or events mentioned in this episode at the links below:

Website: www.divorcecoachesacademy.com
Instagram: @divorcecoachesacademy
LinkedIn: divorce-coaches-academy
Email: DCA@divorcecoachesacademy.com

Transcript

Meet Communication Coach Evelyn Marley

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome back to Divorce Coaches Academy Podcast. I am Tracy, and today's episode builds directly on our recent conversations around fairness. Fair, that other four-letter word that so often stalls divorce and the critical distinction between fairness and resolution. And this episode is about how that shift actually happens in practice. Okay. So because telling clients to let go of fair isn't the work that we do. The work is knowing what to say instead and when. And that's why I am so super pleased and proud to welcome today's guest, Evelyn Marley. She is a DCA certified ADR divorce coach, a communication coach who also helps people handle hard conversations by reframing conflict. Hi, Evelyn.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Hi, Tracy. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Thank you. So Evelyn draws from mediation training, divorce coaching, and communication studies, and her work centers on awareness, boundaries, repair, and most importantly for today's conversation, language that lowers defensiveness and de-escalates conflict. Evelyn is also the host of her very own podcast, Fight Less, where she interviews experts on how conflict management can be used as a skill for repair, growth, and deeper connection, even during life's most difficult transitions. So I am so glad to have you here, Evelyn, joining this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

So happy to be here. It's one of my favorite topics. And so I could just talk about it forever. I'm excited to dig in.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I know, me too. And I'm going to keep my eye on the clock, Tebra, because I know you're going to be listening. Okay. So why don't we jump in where uh where most of us encounter sort of this problem, right? When a client says, I just want what's fair, what do you hear beneath those words, especially through the communication lens?

What Clients Mean By “Fair”

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah. So through the communication lens, what I hear is uh inner inner conflict, right? When we talk about conflict, outer conflict, inner conflict, and also inner communication with that conflict. So something is going on under the surface. And how can we understand what's going on under that surface? What does that word mean to them? I know that you and Deborah always talk about, you know, fear the four-letter word. And um just thinking well, and by the way, just so you know, I love the other four-letter F word.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

I'm sure I do too. I just can't say it on the podcast, right? So I don't say the other four-letter F word in divorce as like a negative connotation, but yes, it holds a lot of impact, right? For clients.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

It does. It's it holds a lot of weight. I'm really glad you said that because if we're thinking about fair and what that word means to someone individually, then we can start to dig in on that word specifically and what it means to them. I always talk about when you're in an argument and someone says, like, uh, I I want you to fix this. Like, what does fix mean? Right. What does the actual word mean to you in terms of language? Because we're not only coming at from a perspective of like what it means to you, but like our backgrounds and our history hold so much of what those words mean. And so we don't know perspectively what's happening within the word. And so really getting to the root of what the word means to the client is where I would start because that's when you can feel the where the weight is coming from for them. Yeah.

Validate Feelings Without Approving Positions

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah. I am famous for saying when a client says, well, it's not fair, right? I I often uh, although digging into what the word fair means to them, and I really want to, you know, acknowledge that that historical, cultural, societal uh contextualization, if you will, around the word fair in terms of what it means, but also that perspective, right? It is so different. What fair means to you in a situation may not at all be what fair means to me in that situation. And I think when we hear that word fair, right, it's often a signal, right? Kind of a signal for some something's it's like my red flags are going off in my head, right? Picking up on some of this, using my uh perception framework, right? A signal about impact, a signal about loss, a signal about something in my opinion that hasn't yet fully metabolized. And when there are untrained professionals, they often can get, I don't know, I want to say sucked into reinforcing fairness rather than helping reframe it.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Absolutely. And when you add on, if the professional is doing that, what's even happening outside in their external environment to happen where they are hearing other people say that word to them? Like, are you sure that's fair? And so, in that neutral framework, it's so important to stay neutral to that. I always say, like, be a bottle of water, be a bottle as a coach, you have to be a bottle of water and not rattle, you know, the external around your client who might be a bottle of soda and the bubbles leading up to that explosion of emotional, you know, outburst over what's happening that is quote unquote fair or not.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah. And I think this is where a lot of professionals really struggle, right? Sort of they they they know the emotion, right? Because there's a lot of emotion behind this word and and feelings, how we feel about fairness needs to be acknowledged. But at the same time, they're sort of afraid that if they don't validate that fairness, right, the client will often feel dismissed.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Yes. And so validating the emotion without uh doubling down on jumping in bed, doubling down, you know, doubling down, like, hey, like I hear your feelings of unfairness. I I really understand that what you're going through is difficult right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

So yeah, because it is. Yeah, absolutely. And it feels also threatening, as you just said, right? There's a lot of uncertainty and and this threat of fairness, equitability, how it defined in that that individual's experience, right, has to be validated yet without sort of reinforcing this concept of positional thinking.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

So, how how can we validate emotion without anchoring sort of that coaching process to sort of this emotional justice, if you will?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah. Um as I was learning in the mentorship program, validating without approval is an art form, truly. It's an art form. And I will never forget being stopped on my mentorship during my coaching sessions where I was getting coached on this. I would get stopped. And I was like, What did I say? I don't understand, you know. It took me some time to unlearn habits that that feel natural almost, you know. Um, one would be like, Yeah, uh, that is unfair. Even saying that is really just, you know, it's it's saying, I understand, but also be careful with that language because if I said, for instance, they came up with an idea and they said, Oh, I love that idea, that's me offering approval on that. And that is not something that they need to hear in that moment. It needs to be more validating without that actual offer of approval, which is it takes time to learn how to do that. But um, a lot of it requires active listening and just reinforcing what they've already said with their experience and their perspective and what they've come up with in terms of insights.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah. I think it's such an extremely important point when we talk about sort of this confirmation bias, right? And helping the coach not get uh slippy, it's a slippery slope into that process of anchoring that client into the fairness without dismissing the the emotional experience of it. So so what I'm hearing you say is it's really engaged one in the listening to be able to identify, okay, this is, you know, a potentially anchoring bias for the client. Yeah, it's a real thing that they're experiencing. And to be able to use that listening framework first to be able to identify it, engage in exploration, to be able to validate without doubling down and reinforcing the positionality of it. And it does take practice. I I will a hundred percent agree, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Yeah, yeah. I don't want them to feel like they're in an echo chamber where all they hear is that, because then you lose the perspective of what's possible on the other side.

Using Silence, Reflection, And Reframes

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, and I think that's really recognizing that validation doesn't require agreement. Right. I can still acknowledge that you feel this way without agreeing that you should feel this way or that it is needed to feel this way because what I think is completely irrelevant, yet we don't want it to be sort of the the uh stepping stones to get to that place. So, and and I really think that precision is so necessary and required in the work that we do as dispute resolution specialists. So, so sort of getting kind of practical about it, right? When when clients are emotionally justified, but decisionally stuck, right? They're stuck in that process. What language shifts do you think you have found to be most effective in moving that conversation forward, sort of unsticking it, if you will?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

When I hear unsticking it, I think of quicksand and how the client gets really lost in the story that they have about the fairness and um the idea that quicksand, you know, um the natural the natural uh thing that you want to do with quicksand that you think instinctively is like, I gotta get out of here. I gotta move around a lot, right? Yeah, right. But uh opposite action really as a coach tells me to sit back and really actually the more silence and space there is between uh what the client is saying, what the client is thinking, and what I'm thinking and saying, there's opportunity for them to come up with more insights to um what what is that justification that's keeping them stuck. And oftentimes I'll be sitting there and I'll be quiet and I will fight that you know instinct to say something or to break that silence. And they'll keep going. They will keep going. And the communication is really just opposite action and and and pulling back on speaking during those moments and letting them trusting the client, as we say, right? Trusting that they can come up with those insights on their own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And and where I see such a significant role as we're sort of sitting back and allowing that client that space and and taking a more uh inactive process with the client in that discovery is also though, then reflecting back those really small shifts, right? For the the coach to kind of pick up on those little things, right? And reflect back that then uh is not reinforcing this widening of the conflict loop, right? Where we can actually start begin to close it, even though the client is doing this. We're just taking those little things. And I like to think of them as almost like these little um butterfly strips. You know, you ever get a cut and instead of stitches, they're like these little butterfly strips and using reflection, these really small shifts in their own words and their own thinking, as we've sat back and and sort of allowed them that space to do it is essential because it becomes an intervention without uh an invalidation, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Absolutely. And as we're we are able to sit and listen and actively listen and then reflect back those things, a lot of the times I get clients who say, Oh wow, I didn't even I didn't even realize that I said that, or I didn't even realize that had happened. I and and saying, you know, what do you what do you think about that? How does that align with your goals that you originally started with to now? Is it still in alignment for you and getting them back on track of what they're what they're really trying to accomplish within coaching for their future and and reminding them of their best self? I think the best self exercise is one of the best ones that really just keeps them encompassed in that framework of hey, does this align? Does my idea of fairness align and justification align with that best self-practice that I really how I really want to show up?

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah. Yeah. That value-based decision making alignment and and future focused, right? Two big things that we just talked about in dispute resolution, right? Key factors in in reaching a resolution, which is right significant as we're talking about fairness. Um, so what I'm hearing is is this opportunity for clients and and for us and the work that we're doing to shift sort of to highlight their shifts and their language for our ability to kind of pick up the perception of that language, right? And then use that language back in a reflection that may put uh we're gonna uh we're gonna use the word reframe here, but I like to put a little spin on my reframe, right? To take to take some of that language and just positionally just shift that language in the reflection that I give back. And then a nine out of ten times my clients like, yes, yeah, yes. And I think often it's because they don't have the words to really even then expand beyond this idea of fairness. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

It's it's absolutely true. And when you do hit that note for them, when when when they do they feel even more seen and more validated and more uh like they can accomplish more because you hear them, you're able to hear that what's deep down underneath that that fairness or why they're feeling justified. But also we can start to explore solutions, or they can start to explore solutions, and then we can again reflectively play those back, reality test for them, what they would look like, what it what's their future focus.

Aligning With Best Self And Future Focus

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so those are things that we positively do as dispute resolution focused divorce coaches. Let's kind of zoom out a little and talk about the the echo sphere of divorce world, right? So, where do you often see professionals? And it and it could be divorce coaches, attorneys, sometimes even mediators, sadly. So unintentionally reinforce these fairness narratives through language.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

So again, with the validation with approval, subconsciously not knowing, um, and also the inner conflict that we have as coaches with getting too attached to the outcome that of fairness of what happens with the client. Um we have to remain neutral because while we're supportive of clients, you know, um, we have no control over the outcome. And we cannot get lost in the sauce of of what's happening in that experience because we are the professional. They came to us to make sure we maintain neutrality in the situation so we can think clearly because they are experiencing an emotional turmoil. And so they need us grounded in that space of neutrality so we can continue to be there in support of their decision-making process and continue to listen instead of hearing our own voice in that conflict. Well, I don't like what they said, I don't like they said either, you know. It's like, wait, take a step back. We can't jump on that train with them.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. And and I I I think you're you're right. I I do think that there are so many professions within this space that really do genuinely care about the outcome for that client and then start in this role of advocacy, yeah, where then we're actually misstepping the client and and putting our interests, even though our interests may be, I just want the best outcome for you, Evelyn.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Right. So I'm gonna protect you, but in that process of protection, right? They're there they're actually creating a larger rift in this conflict by this positional thinking of fairness and reinforcing that fairness narrative. I hear it all the time from attorneys, right? I spend a lot of time in client attorney meetings. Um, and I hear attorneys, yeah, oh my, yeah, that should never happen. That is wrong. That is that is not what you know we need as an outcome and we're going to, and then it creates this again, confirmation bias where the client then is, okay, yeah, you're right. That wasn't fair, and this is what I need. And when we can stay neutral to that outcome and expand that perspective and look at, you know, this ideology of fairness and what do I need to be able to move forward? We've spoken, uh, Deb and I spoke last week about sort of the solution uh good enough concept, right? This idea of can it be good enough? And and I think there are professionals who want more than good enough, but in the process of wanting more than good enough for the client and making those decisions for the client, right? They're inevitably creating, I'm gonna say, less uh or more disadvantaged situations in regard to conflict than those that can help recenter this narrative of what does fair mean for you? What would that look like? What are you willing to do? And how does that then align, as you were talking about with your best self and and uh staying true to get to that place? Because if you have to compromise your own values to reach a desired outcome, then that desired outcome is no longer. Going to be desired.

How Professionals Reinforce Fairness Narratives

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah. And the reminder of that, right? It's it's easy to get wrapped up in all the stories of everyone and anything that people are saying on the outside. You add that to the confirmation bias of whatever it is that you're looking for internally with the conflict that's happening and the words you're telling yourself inside. Being that safe space where you can be a coach and come in, and the coach is gonna be grounded is so important, especially in the coaching world, especially with what we're trying to accomplish as coaches and staying neutral, staying ethical, staying embodied in the practice of ADR.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, yeah. So so we we were using this language, right? Of good enough. Yes. How how do you think in language, right, we can communicate good enough to help clients identify good enough without the client feeling like they were dismissed or minimized, or or you know, somebody said to me the other day I was kind of exploring this concept of good enough with a client, and they're like, You want me to take the high road. I said, the high road, like we weren't even talking roads, like oh, so you see that as taking the high road. What does taking the high road mean? Well, that I should agree to think, and then we got into this whole thing. But then as we were filtering through this, we were getting to interests and needs. So, so it from a language perspective, right? If we were looking at communication, how do how can we effectively communicate ideas or or creating opportunities to explore this good enough without clients feeling minimized or dismissed or shut down?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah, it's really like a check-in point for me when I'm talking with clients. I like to ask them, you know, what's your biggest takeaway so far from the conversation we've had and from the questions I've asked and from what you've understood to be true? Like, is it true? That's another question. That's a powerful like um Byron Katie is always asking, is it true when it comes to emotions and understanding and and getting back down to reality and that reality testing? I think that they can get to good enough if they can repeat back what they've learned, especially in session or through the process of what they've already experienced and gone through, and then align that with their future focused goals. They can find those like silver linings within without invalidating what their experience is. But also, you know, I always say, what was your biggest takeaway from today at the end of the session? Always hands down. And it's very rare that I find a client can't say, Well, you know what? I actually didn't realize this before, I didn't think about this before. That's good enough in terms of what they're trying to accomplish within the session at least. And that can then, from a communication perspective, sit with them as they're going through. I have clients like, Oh, I heard you in my head, you know, when we're talking, it's I always hear you in my head. And I'm like, Oh, is this gonna be worth it? Is this is this worth that's absolutely good enough in those sense because they come back and they're like, guess what? I didn't do I didn't say the thing or I didn't do the thing that I wanted to do. Yeah, because it didn't align with what, and that's good enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, yeah. I I I love that shift because I think that it is so significant, right? Good enough. Why does that sound bad?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yeah, because we use the word good, right? Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Good. There's good enough, right? Do we like enough enough is not less, right? Right. So I I but put together good enough. Is it good enough? Can I live with that? Will that meet my needs and interests? Right? What does that look like for me in practicality? Those are all those reflections. And I think being able to help the support the client and allowing them to start putting some language around that and their terminology, I think is such a significant piece of that and helping that client recognize that they define also good enough. Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, right. So I guess this is the the heart of ADR divorce coaching, if you will, right?

Redefining “Good Enough” In Practice

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Not perfection. No, no, no. And and I I really do believe in the client's ability to learn how to perspective shift. I think it's one of the biggest parts of reframing. And repair is also another part of it. Repairing with the self. Yeah, I was gonna say not through not emotional repair, through settlement, but through self- No, through self, through self to understand that we're human, we make mistakes, we're not gonna do it perfectly. But what is good enough? What can I live with? What can I is this in alignment with the values and the goals that I've made for myself?

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Yeah, and that forward movement, right? To get them to move forward, to take the action to move forward. Oh, oh, I I can do this like every topic, Evelyn, as you know, and sit here and talk about language and the impact on language and the impact and conflict. I think language and communication is so critical. It is. And it is it is often the thing that will contribute or escalate to conflict, yet the very thing that we need to support in working towards resolution or minimization of conflict. And it's the the exciting part about conflict and and communication and conflict and language and communication is is that these things can be learned. Yes. And and it's not people's fault that they they don't necessarily have the skills, but that doesn't mean that they can't start learning these skills. One of the most foundational you and I were just talking about before uh we hit record was the ability to listen. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yes. And I think that communication is just this idea where I need to know what to say, when to say, how to say it at the right time. And really, again with the quick sign, opposite action in thinking, yeah, stepping back, not always needing to say that thing, watching for tone, understanding, reading the room, um, pausing is a huge one, right? It doesn't always involve what we're saying and using perfect words, but it communication involves how we're showing up to the conversation, physically, emotionally, mentally, subconsciously, all those things.

Building Learnable Communication Skills

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Yeah. And to get the support, if those are things, right? To be able to have somebody, a ADR aligned divorce coach, to help clients in navigating this and developing those skills and practicing those skills. So, Evelyn, I really want to thank you for joining me in this really important conversation. Again, if there's one thing we know for certain, it is that we cannot talk about conflict without addressing the role language plays in shaping it. And what stands out for me is that reframing fairness isn't about taking something away from clients, it's actually giving them a way forward. And that's our future-focused work. Language absolutely becomes this bridge, in my opinion, between emotion and resolution. That's the skill, right? That's the skill. And it is a skill that you can learn. It's not instinctual. I don't know anybody who is instinctually born to be an effective listener and communicator in conflict. It takes practice. So yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

I was just gonna say, absolutely. And like I invite coaches to invite their clients to say the things out loud that they've never said before because a lot of the times they don't they not only haven't had the words, but they've never physically said the words out loud sometimes. And it's so important to say, to see how your body sits with saying those words out loud in that reality testing. So oh, that just really just hit something for me right there when you said that.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah, I love that. That safe space, right? To say the things that we don't need to say someplace else, but we could say them here and then explore why it was important to say those things and then how do we reframe it.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Exactly.

Resources And ADR Training Invitation

Closing: Better Language, Better Resolution

SPEAKER_01 29:36

And and and uh as we're shifting in language, shifting perspective, shifting direction, shifting action to reach resolution. So okay, I I know I said like I can keep going on and see how hydrofits back. So if today's conversation resonated uh with you and you'd like to learn more about Evelyn's work at this sort of intersection of communication and conflict resolution, we have included links to her practice and her fight less podcast in the show notes. Uh, and for all of our listeners out there, especially you family law professionals, adjacent professionals in the family law ecosystem. If today's episode resonated with you, it's likely because you may be already doing this work or feeling limits to your current tools. And that's okay. Um, ADR designed and aligned divorce coaching, this is what this is about, right? Helping clients feel heard without keeping them stuck and supporting resolution without emotional invalidation. So if you are interested in advancing your work, please feel free to check out uh the trainings and master level trainings that we do at Divorce Coaches Academy. Um we are the truly only global program uh helping expand uh and train ADR-aligned divorce coaches uh across the globe in Canada and New Zealand and Australia and the Arabian Gulf and soon Europe. So we're we're moving on uh with so much and and really for the revolution of this experience, right? Divorce is a situational event, but it carries all of this conflict and it is uh an experience and an opportunity to do it differently. So I I want to thank you, dearly Evelyn, thank you for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening because divorce does not need more fairness debates, it needs better language so we can get to better resolution. For all of you listening, thank you so much. Thank you.