What Attorneys Wish Clients Understood About Fairness

Fair can feel like justice. In divorce, it often becomes a trap. In this episode, we sat down with attorney and managing partner Sara Marler to explore why “I just want what’s fair” derails strategy, inflates costs, and delays peace—and how a trauma-informed, whole-person approach helps clients pivot toward outcomes they can actually live with. Sara opens the curtain on what courts really weigh under standards like “just and equitable,” why judges prioritize clarity over grievance, and how stories of betrayal still matter when they are used to guide better decisions rather than to fuel a courtroom campaign.

Together, we map the gap between emotional fairness and legal reality, then show how to close it with reframing, education, and the right team. You’ll hear how validating a client’s experience builds trust, how divorce coaches reduce legal fees by handling the emotional heavy lifting, and why amicable and collaborative professionals consistently deliver faster, more sustainable results than “shark” tactics. We also talk practical tools—mindfulness, targeted parenting classes, curated resources—that help parents stop scorekeeping and design plans centered on children’s needs, not adult ego.

If you’re navigating separation or advising clients through it, this conversation offers a clear path from conflict to closure: focus on what you can control, choose resolution over vindication, and measure success by stability, not revenge. Divorce splits one household into two; it won’t look the same, and that’s okay. The goal is a livable outcome that protects your kids, your wallet, and your future self. 

Subscribe, share this episode and leave us a review to help others find us. 

To learn more about Sara visit her practice website at: https://marlerlawpartners.com/

Learn more about DCA® or  any of the classes or events mentioned in this episode at the links below:

Website: www.divorcecoachesacademy.com
Instagram: @divorcecoachesacademy
LinkedIn: divorce-coaches-academy
Email: DCA@divorcecoachesacademy.com

Transcript

Wrapping The Fairness Theme

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Welcome or welcome back to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. I'm Deborah. I'm one of the co-founders here. And this episode is going to conclude the theme of fairness that we've been talking about all month. And hopefully it's going to build strategically on our three other episodes where we examined why fairness often becomes a hidden blocker in divorce and how reframing toward resolution shortens time frames, reduces cost, and improves long-term outcomes. I am thrilled today. I'm joined by attorney Sarah Marlar, and she's going to add some critical, like real-world depth to this discussion, particularly around what fairness means legally versus how clients experience it emotionally. So, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Um sorry if my voice is gravelly. I've got whatever gunk is going around.

Trauma-Informed, Whole-Person Lawyering

SPEAKER_01 1:37

I had the plague last week, so I get it. It is going around. So you guys, Sarah is the managing partner of Marlar Law Partners. And she recently completed DCA's ADR divorce coach training. She is a compassionate advocate. She's been the voice of children, the voice victims of abuse, and I love this line. People that are simply trying to hold on to what's most dear to them. So I grabbed that from your website, Sarah, but what else would you like listeners to know about you and your work before we dive in here?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Sure. Thank you so much for that. Um, you know, our firm takes a very different approach. We have what I refer to as a trauma-informed law firm. We do a lot of trauma training here. We have an on-staff trauma therapist who is also our chief wellness officer for us, because it's important for the work that we do that we are in check. Um we also take what I also like to call, and we'll talk about this, I think, as we go through the podcast today, um, a whole person approach or a person-centered approach, um, which I think is really different than what most lawyers do. Um, that's a little bit, a little bit unique thing that we do here at this firm.

What “I Want What’s Fair” Signals

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Awesome. I love it. We're thrilled to have you here because of that approach, because of your commitment to treating the whole person, not just the legal part of things, right? Great. Thank you. What I hope we can achieve today is to kind of bring to the surface what attorneys see every day, but clients rarely understand. And that's how fairness language impacts negotiations, it escalates conflict. And sometimes it actually has clients undermining their own interests. So we want to help the listeners, professionals and consumers alike, differentiate between feeling right or vindicated and getting finished, and highlight how aligned professionals can better support that decision making. So let's just start here. When a client comes to you and they say, I just want what's fair, what do you as an attorney hear beneath that statement?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

So I hear several things, and it's it's different for everyone. So the first thing that in my mind goes off is I need to do a lot of digging because I don't really know what they mean. But some of what I have found different people to mean by that is um some of them are well intentioned and have a lot of wishful thinking. Um typically are very positioned and very positional in their thinking. Um some of them are people who really just I mean, very much the first thing that goes off for me is like it's someone who needs to be heard. They have a story to tell, they need to be heard, and they are very focused on the past.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Um oftentimes it's people who have a lot of anger or resentment or a list of wrongs.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

And they want that like checked. Right. Yes. They don't necessarily realize that that's what they're thinking when they say, um, I just want what's fair. But typically as I dig, that's what I find.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

And then I think it's also an issue of someone who is, and I don't mean this in an in an offensive or disrespectful way to the person, but it's someone who is really kind of thinking about themselves and they don't realize it. They're not thinking about the other person.

Emotional Fairness Vs Legal Standards

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Right. That that is hard, right? At the start of this process. And we talk about that in the training, how cognitive empathy is really a strategic tool, but that's not where clients start out. No, they they typically don't start out with a working definition of fairness that is um operationally useful in a legal or dispute resolution um environment, right? They come with this emotional narrative of fairness. Right. And you talked about, you know, shock, grief, fear. Um, they're dealing with betrayal, right? And they hope that that emotional narrative of fairness will translate clearly into legal outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Well, right. And I think that for them it's so subjective. It's it's so subjective. And you know, for the law, it's so objective. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

It really is. And that's where uh attorneys really carry this enormous cognitive load because you're trying to work to translate a client's emotional definition of fairness into this framework that's governed by statutes, precedent, risk analysis, and procedure.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So they're and and again, not this isn't meant to be dismissive. Most clients are ignorant about how divorce works. And I don't mean ignorant, stupid. I mean, of course they don't understand how divorce works. They haven't been through it before.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Right. They don't know what they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

And exactly. And they've listened to family and friends, and they've been on the internet, and so they're coming in with this preconceived notion of how it might apply to their situation.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Absolutely. And and a lot of times they continue to listen to the family and the friends who fuel the fire throughout the entire case.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Yeah, exactly. It's it's so hard. Um yeah, and the the fairness often comes out either I just want to be fair or I only want what I'm entitled to. That's right. Right. And so that's the reframing that we have to work so hard on.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Correct. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah. Reframing what am I entitled to? To what can I live with in order to be done. Correct. Because what we know. And our again, our clients don't know this yet, that the most transformative thing for them in this whole process is to be done.

Costs Of Chasing Fairness

SPEAKER_00 8:06

It is. It's it is to be done, it is to move on, it is to be able to start um their next chapter and not in a dismissive way, but in a way of having like some closure. And and then the other thing, there's such a balancing act as a lawyer in all of this because we're trying to be mindful um of okay, I have this client who I need to validate, who I need to like sort of hold space for all their feelings, their emotions, their experience, what they've gone through. I also need to hold space for trying to help them understand and educate them on all of their options. I also need to hold space for making sure that they feel like I'm, you know, hearing them, fighting for them, right? And I need to hold space for the idea that I have to balance how much money they're spending.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Because some of these clients, like if I just go down the fairness path with them, we're gonna blow through all this money. And to what end?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Right. To what end? So that really leads into kind of my next question is how does a client's pursuit of fairness tend to affect legal strategy, the timelines, all the costs involved? And we know the costs aren't just your fees, there's all kinds of other costs that go along with prolonging the process.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I mean, part of the problem is fairness is elusive. It's it just is. Um again, it it varies from person to person. So, I mean, there are there are two people that I have that we have to be dealing with, that the court has to deal with, right? So, you know, one person's definition of fairness versus the other person's definition of fairness. And you know, you've got two lawyers trying to deal with that and a judge trying to deal with that. Um, it it drives up the cost, it extends the length of the case. Um and fair really keeps us focused on the past rather than being forward thinking on how do we get to resolution. Um it makes it very hard to have a legal strategy when we're constantly focused on fair because it's so elusive and because each party has a different definition of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Exactly. That's why we call it the four-letter F-word in divorce, right? Right. Um, because the two parties aren't gonna agree. And also, we want all answer the same this question the same way. Fair to who? Correct.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Fair to you, fair to your spouse, fair to your kids. Well, and that's what I was just gonna say. The other thing that we also have to think about is the children, right? And then if you have a guardian of lightem involved, now you got another lawyer in here who's raising their hand, um, saying, Well, let's talk about the kids and let's talk about you know the fairness here, and then you've got more expense, and that's exactly right.

Just And Equitable Explained

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Right, exactly. So in your experience, because we we know these are two mutually exclusive things usually, where do you see like legal standards and the emotional definition of fairness most often bump up against each other?

SPEAKER_00 11:34

So, I mean, it's different in every state what the legal standard is, but tends to be, I would say, somewhat similar. So in Missouri, where I practice, what we talk about is particularly is is surrounding um division of property, right? Is here it's what's just and equitable, right? So I talk to my clients, I tell them that, you know, it's what's just and equitable. And then I say to them, what does that mean? Who freaking knows? I have nobody knows what that means. Here's what I can tell you judges are not focused on how we got here and the emotional and mental load of what it took, but the parties are. Yes. And I don't blame them. There's a story here, and a lot of people want their story told and want to be heard. Um, and I will say, I do think as a lawyer, it is my job to listen to that and to validate it, right? But then also to help them evaluate, the client evaluate, like, which is why I say, like, we here take a whole person approach. We're not the lawyer that's gonna say to you, none of that matters, stop talking about it. It does matter. It does matter for me to hear it, it does matter for me to validate it for them, and then to us for us to talk about and decide, do you want to spend money proving all these things? And and delaying and delaying the end of your marriage and and going to court and battling it out, right? Um, right for a judge who really is probably not going to put a lot of stock in most of this emotional, um, the emotional pieces, and is really going to look at things as objectively as possible. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Um, I think the other reason I think it's important to to validate and hear that person's story and where they're coming from is a lot of the work we do as coaches is understand how somebody's perceptions and their thinking is affecting their decision making.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Right.

Validating Stories To Reframe

SPEAKER_01 13:36

And so I've got to know what they're thinking in order to get in there and do the right kind of reframes. Right. To get them shifted, right? And attorneys do too. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I I love that you acknowledge the importance of the story and all the juicy bits in there because they're important to the client. That builds trust when you're willing to listen to them, makes them feel more protected and aligned with you. Um, I also think it gives you more permission to do that reframing and to say the harder things when you need to.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Right. Because not always, but a lot of times, particularly if you've been doing this for a long time, you know your judges, you have some sense of what's gonna happen, right? I mean, it depends on the circumstances and if it's a more complex case or if it's a higher conflict case and there's some, you know, one-off situations, but for the most part, you have some sense of what judges are gonna do. Um and so again, ultimately, I do leave it to my client to make the decision on how they want to, you know, proceed. Um, but they they do go into it eyes wide open from our perspective. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

There's fairness and there's resolution, and they aren't always the same thing. Often they're very different. What do you wish clients understood earlier about the difference between those two? Fairness and resolution.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I wish they understood that resolution will help them get to peace for themselves faster, it will help them get to peace if they have kids in their case for their kids and their family faster. And it will quite frankly, it will help them keep more money in their pocket and put less in mine. Um but there are some clients who like and I do hold space for this, who just have to have their day in court. They just do, and that's okay. Um but quite frankly, that comes at a price, right? And it comes at a price of not only a dollar price, but also like you're on that stand saying these things in front of this spouse, it's really hard to then go co-parent with them. It it will fundamentally change the landscape of the way you relate to that person forever. Um so I really wish that people would sort of be able to think a bigger picture of what do I want the rest of my life to look like. You know, resolution really does like if you can think about resolution and how do I get to a to resolve quicker, and how does that help my life long term, particularly if there are kids involved? Like I have so many people who say I just have to get some my kids turning 18. And then it's like actually, actually, no. Actually, no, you're a family forever. You are, and and if you'd like to be able to be invited to weddings and events with grandchildren and it be pleasant, then we have to really think big picture. We can't just think right now.

unknown 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

And we can't just think about winning and losing or wanting one-upping somebody, right? Right, right.

Resolution Over Vindication

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And and co-parenting doesn't end when they're 18. I mean, my kids are 30 and 32, and I still probably talk to my co-parent once a week. That's right. It's we're we're still a family, even though he and I aren't together. And that's um, I do think that's it's really hard. I think it's especially hard when you had somebody who's been really harmed or betrayed. They somehow are linking their healing and recovery to this idea of their day in court or being hurt or there being some reparation for what happened. And I think what I wish I understood, or what I wish I could give them the gift of understanding, is that their healing and recovery has nothing to do with the other person.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

It has nothing to do with getting five more days of parenting time or 10% more of the 401k. Their healing is their healing. And that doesn't really start until we're done.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Right. You are stuck. You are stuck until we're able to be finished, and only then can you start to move forward.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, yeah. That healing is not dependent on that other person agreeing with you or acknowledging your story, and that's hard. I get it. It is.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah. And the other and the other thing we really try to help our clients focus on is what they can control and trying to release what they can't control, which I acknowledge is so easy for me to say and so hard to do. So, so hard to do. Um, but trying to parent the other parent, it's it's just it just makes everything so much worse for you. Yeah. Um, it increases your anxiety, it raises conflict in the case, it keeps you from resolution, it keeps you from moving on, and all of that keeps you from what you were just talking about, which is beginning to be able to heal.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Right. And it keeps you from being the kind of employee, friend, parent, granddaughter you want to be, because you're tied up in all this angst about uh how often they're eating broccoli at the other parent's house or what kind of toothpaste they're using. That's right. Yeah, how much screen time they're having.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

That's right.

Control What You Can Control

SPEAKER_01 19:45

So clients are coming in with this uh emotional narrative of fairness, and we're trying to get them to kind of reframe that into something that legally you can work with, and that's resolution focused. So, how do you help clients kind of make that shift or prepare them when you know the outcome isn't going to be acceptable to them? It's not gonna be emotionally satisfying.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

So it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, it's very difficult, but like we offer a few different things here that we do to try to help with that. We offer, as I kind of mentioned at the top, we have a an on staff therapist who is working as a client support specialist. Um we we refer out to a divorce coach or Um, we have divorce coach on staff. We take a whole person approach. So we try to, you know, create space for them and hold space for them for all of their emotions. Um, we try to encourage them working with the therapist or um or working with our therapist. We validate their emotions and their entire experience. We educate, educate, educate as much as possible, um, which means I'm not sure if you're familiar with it or not, but there's an incredible film called The Split, called Split.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah.

Preparing Clients For Unsatisfying Outcomes

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Okay. So uh I pay for the rights to that film every year and share it with every one of my clients and encourage them to watch it. We provide them with, you know, books uh to review, resources. Um, we provide support for after their case is over. Um and so we do a lot of things like that to try to support them through the case um in ways that's not just lawyering. Right. Yeah. Um, because if I came in and just lawyered and just talked at them about the legal process, then I'm just gonna get wrapped up in that fairness cycle with them. Um and we also try to talk to them and and help them understand like the costs of everything that's going that they're going through and how that's gonna drive it up and say, you know, not just and I don't mean just the legal fees, I mean the emotional cost, right? Absolutely dragged out. Um now obviously like in and also trying to be like clear, there is also only so much we can control on our side, right? So if we have somebody on the other side of the case who is super focused on fairness, um, and that is their tunnel vision, and they're not willing to budge or move, then we may be stuck going to a to trial no matter what. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Absolutely. I mean, Tracy Moore Grant from the Amicable Divorce Network says this, and we've kind of stolen her line, and that is the parties don't even have to like each other to have an amical divorce. What you need are professionals on your team that have that amicable collaborative resolution focused mindset. If you choose those kinds of team members, it ups the ante that that's kind of process you're gonna have.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It's so true, which is why I I love the idea of the amical divorce network. We don't have any, I'm in it, but I think I'm the only one in Missouri in it, so it's kind of hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

But I I I'm a big fan of collaborative divorce. We have a pretty active collaborative divorce network here, and that's exactly true. And what I see there, like we do collaborative divorce cases where people don't particularly like each other, but we get through it. And um, those cases are particularly focused on resolution, resolution, resolution. Yes, and it's incredible the difference you see.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Because you, as the team members, are not feeding that's right, that fairness narrative. Sure, we can file that. Absolutely, I can get that. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

That's right.

Hiring For Amicable, Not “Shark,” Results

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Right. Because you're not feeding that narrative. And so you're kind of cooling the whole timeline down.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

It is. And it and so I would say, like, for you know, if you have clients that are that are listening to this, like that's why it matters who you hire. Right. You know, I just saw a post in a uh group the other day on Facebook that was like, I need a shark of attorney. And I I wish people would consider or reconsider like that approach, right? I mean, and I tell people when they come in and talk to us, like, I have two modes. I do. I mean, I can be an excellent trial attorney and go in and do what I need to do, but that's not the only mode you want me to be in. That's just not the only mode you want me to be in. No.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

I I need to know you have that gear in the event that it's necessary, but that's not where I want to do most of our driving. No. No. No, no. And I can just tell you from personal experience, having been doing this for a really long time and working with a lot, a lot of clients. Um, I rarely ever see anybody satisfied with the shark attorney that they hired. That's true. They don't feel validated, they don't feel heard. When they get an outcome that is less than satisfying to them, they feel like the attorney let them down rather than they made an informed intentional decision to negotiate or collaborate or compromise on something. And so I just rarely ever see them satisfied with that. That's the other part of it.

Coaches As Catalysts For Resolution

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Right. Because I mean, I will say, like a lot of the quote, shark attorneys that I know, God bless them, you know, they treat their clients that way too. Um so for me, like you're right. Like I can go into that gear. Uh, I never treat my clients that way, but I can go into that gear if that's the gear that we have to go into for whatever reason. And there are many reasons to have to go into it. Um, but my client's gonna know all the options, um, all the reasons, very educated about, you know, why, what are the alternatives? Um, but that's not the only gear. We have to be able to consider everything.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Everything, right? That's the that's the Hail Mary. It is the Hail Mary, right? Right. So uh from your seat, what role do you see like coaches and some of the other ADR professionals play here when we're helping trying to help clients release this fairness-based gridlock?

Parenting Plans And Letting Go Of Scorekeeping

SPEAKER_00 26:31

So a couple things. It's it is really helpful in if if I've got somebody who's working with someone like you, it it will it will number one help bring their legal fees down because I'm not having to do the dual role, right? I can stay in the lane as a lawyer. Um number two, it can absolutely help the client get to a point where a lot of times they have the answer inside themselves and they don't realize it, right? And you all have such amazing skills and and training and getting them there. And that is incredibly empowering for the client to realize they know the answer and they can uncover it themselves rather than like you know, a lawyer telling it to them or telling it at them. Right. Um, because as lawyers, we typically don't have that kind of skill set or training. Um, and so for you all we're we're working to change that. You are. You are. You are, but you know, I mean, for someone like you to be able to work with them and help them recognize like where they're stuck in conflict, be able to offer the empathy, help keep them get in, help, help get them into a solution-focused mindset, right? Um you know, have them be outcome-oriented, like listening to them, validating them, helping them find answers within themselves, and helping them feel empowered to do that, right? Like that is priceless. And then on top of it, a lot of times what I've seen um with people like you is you're able to help them offer other things like mindfulness practices that they can utilize when we're sitting in court, and it's overwhelming and scary and terrifying. Help them celebrate small wins because this whole process is so overwhelming, right? And lawyers aren't typically taking the time to do that. Um, which means you guys are helping break down the overwhelm, right? Um, so it really does help them in a more strategic way and in a way that the lawyers like aren't great at because it is sort of dual role, right? And it's it's hard to wear two hats well. Um get them to be more solution focused and and less, you know, focused on being fair.

unknown 28:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

If we've got somebody else on the team like yourself.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah. Solution focused, future focused. Let's get done so you can start the new thing. Is there anything we haven't covered or I haven't asked you about that you would like to share your position as an attorney in terms of how you see clients getting tripped up with fairness?

SPEAKER_00 29:28

I think really the only other thing I would say is like I like to offer my clients or get them into um this one particular parenting class that's like nobody really loves me when I say, Can you please take this eight-hour parenting class? But it is it is a really incredible class that does help people focus on kind of what I mentioned earlier, what they can control in themselves. Yeah. Rather than being focused on the other person.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Good.

What You Can Live With And Sustainability

SPEAKER_00 29:58

And I do think that the underlying kind of idea in there does help get you away from this like fairness, right? Because people with the parenting get so focused on counting the hours. Right. Yes. Or counting like who's doing what for the child, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Again, making it about me instead of making a parenting plan is for the children, it's not for the parents. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

So it can, it can feel like because I mean ultimately what I say to my clients is I I can promise you right now somebody's gonna do more than the other. And when you're living as a family unit, somebody did more than the other, you just weren't focused on it or worried about it, or it wasn't the emphasis. Absolutely, absolutely. So just education, education, education, education, support, understanding, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

To to and what I hope that we as divorce coaches do is we are helping clients separate that emotional justice from a procedural outcome so that my client's attorney can do what they do best.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Right. And be really efficient, be really supportive. So, you know, helping clients evaluate what they can live with rather than what they're owed. I think the whole system functions a little bit better. And hopefully that's what we're all building toward, right? One where we are all aligned in this so that resolution is achievable without the unnecessary damage that we see every day.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

It is. And I think exactly what you said is key. What can you live with? What can you tolerate? Um what's sustainable? What's sustainable? Because there is a piece of this where I try to tell clients this and I try to tell them this several times throughout a case because it's hard for them to hear it the first time we meet. Um, but you know, we're we're taking one household and breaking it into two. It's not gonna look the same, right? No matter what, it's not gonna look the same um financially. So we have to figure out like what you can live with, and then you have to just expect that there will be some rebuilding that has to occur.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Absolutely. Yeah, it takes a while to get used to the the new, right? You're comfortable with the old, right? And we talk in training, and I know we're running over, so I want to wrap up, but we talk about the difference between being a zoo tiger and a jungle tiger.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

That's right, right?

Zoo Tiger To Jungle Tiger And Closing

SPEAKER_01 32:28

And so I I think our clients have been in the zoo, right? Things have been predictable, they're normal. This is the way we always do it. And divorce throws them out in the jungle where they don't get dinner on a stick at 4 p.m. And things don't, you know, they have to hunt for water and they have to reinvent. And uh, and and when you're thrown from the zoo to the jungle overnight, it takes a little while to kind of build those skills back up. That's absolutely right. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks everybody for listening to the DCA podcast. We'll be back next week with another topic. I think actually we're going to be talking about standards of practice next week. So please tune in and let's talk about why those are important as we keep moving the profession forward. And Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. This was great.